Lara Croft: The Debate

  • Maybe the guys I asked were gay, [hehe] . Or like me, respectable to women.


    I call it a night at 9pm because I have to get up at 5:45am the next day. And Nid Y'wr Byd Yn Ddigon is Welsh for The World Is Not Enough.

  • Maybe the guys I asked were gay, [hehe] .

    Now that's a bit harsh ! :D
    Hey, I didn't know you are welsh, I worked with a welsh guy years ago. He said he was from a town called Llanelli. Had no trouble understanding him, when he spoke in " english." [hehe] Welsh sounds like gaelic to me. :-? But thanks for the translation, Cat. :thumbs:
    You do love James Bond. ;-)

  • Oh I'm not Welsh, I speak a little bit of it. I'm mostly American and yes, I do love my 007. But I think we should get back on topic (but feel free to continue this discussion in the Anything Goes thread, :D ).

  • I'm mostly American

    Mostly ? [hehe]
    You know, we are talking about Lara being virtually ( ?! ) nude. But what about Amanda ? She does show a bit of cleavage, doesn't she ?
    And that walk. Looks like she ( Lara ) is strutting the cat-walk ( on high heels ). Well, she is a Lady after all. And I do love her. :love:

  • I've kinda missed the main debate but as its a topic I can debate for both sides for I'll chip in.


    I will start with arguing that Lara's physique is, not exactly positive but when seen by a certain persepctive it is somewhat better than what I will argue later.


    When stripped to its core; Tomb Raider is a franchise -it makes money. Obviously you're all intelligent and know that. Whether or not Lara's breasts were purposely designed that way or a "good" mistake is subject to controversy, and we can't change that; they are now part of her identity -just as her pistols and sharp personality are. You can argue until Earth's end whether I am justified or moral in my next statement, I care not because I can see its a vicious cycle of hypocrisy and contradication (...just like everything else in our pathetic existance) and I will prove that to you in the later stages of my post. What I'm getting at is that whether you like it or not, her breasts make money -its arguable that a significant percentage of the buyers will buy the franchise for partly if not fully because of Lara's sex appeal. Yeah, sick to you but its what some find attractive and you've hardly the right to dictate what is found attracive or arousing for another: its like saying homosexuality or bisexuality are wrong. The point is without the money from these buyers you could say that the franchise wouldn't have gotten this far; people don't want a heroine who has all the undesirable aspects, so in some mutated way you should be thanking the people who buy because of it. The world and everything in it is driven by this primitive desire, everyone wants to pass on the genes that are deemed most useful or attractive in the pursuit of survival, so really we should (well, I already have...) be criticising society in general.


    Right, this side of the argument is more generic and I feel infinitely more for, given that I'm female.


    I am sickened by the male population on this planet. I have been betrayed by them and I have been hurt beyond tears because of a certain two people. It would be wrong for me to say the all have one thing in mind regarding females as I am closer as friends to men in general (although I pick who I want to trust and socialise with V. carefully) but the vast majority all want one thing. I'm throwing any taboos out of the window. Sex. That is all that seems to be on the brain, I've had it up to here with the double entendres and the comments regarding the female form. To say it is degrading is a severe understatement. We are not objects of pleasure, we just like men have emotions and ambitions, its disgusting to think that you can "win" a woman. I read somewhere that a woman was refused a place in management at a company simply because she was a mother. It may not be related to Tomb Raider but this primitive inequality is everywhere, and I'm probably right in saying that it will never change...look at the US election, its great that there is going to be the First Black American President but they would still rather have a male president that a woman! Its also quite pathetic that men can't or simply can't be bother to see past what meets the eye. As mentioned earlier, Lara is not Lara soley because of her breasts. She is a person that many aspire to be, she is an all round good person with a fantastic sense of humour and has a great personality. Its a shame that it is overshadowed by the sex appeal that Lara exerts to most people.



    Yeah... thats my bit said. I don't care whether or not you or everybody else agrees. I have already reached the conclusion that it is pointless to argue against society. People like me are a minority and so consequently minorities have no power. Even if I did broadcast this opinion to the world it would be pointless because at the end of the day, everyone acts in favour of themselves and refuse think of the implications on others.

  • Now that's one hell of an analysis ;-)
    Well, I have to agree with you on basically everything you mentioned... People lusting after Lara has its good (money) as well as bad (rude jokes about "normal" players, weirdness in general) sides.


    Even if I did broadcast this opinion to the world it would be pointless because at the end of the day, everone acts in favour of themselves and refuse think of the implications on others.


    Certainly that applies to a vast majority of people out there. However, I don't think it's pointless, especially not in this thread, for us hopefully being a bit less narrowminded than the average Tomb Raider basher and/or breast-fixated person :P

  • Being a woman too, I have to agree with you.


    I am not happy with the gamers who think Laras physical appearance her most important attribute, as they give the fandom, which as I've learned has a huge number of gay and female gamers, a bad reputation which we don't deserve.

  • Very well said, Skinny Jeans, and I whole-heartedly agree with your point. First paragraph being, you're right, you can't change the attractiveness of the game which seems to attract the perverted male mind, and that's their choice. I more stand on the fact that a large percentage of the male population appreciate Lara only for her sex appeal, and that's what really grinds my gears. I mean, they can't appreciate her for what she stands for?


    Oh, and regarding what you said in the second paragraph, I totally agree. And if you ask me, James Bond isn't doing this subject any favours. As said by Vesper in Casino Royale, and this quote is oh so memorable, "You think of women as disposable pleasures, rather than meaningful pursuits". That quote is forever burned into my brain; not only is it James Bond's aim, but it's also the aim of many men in society today, and it's sickening.


    Ironic part is, I'm a guy, but I've got the good sense since my parents raised me properly to not be a sexist dinosaur and appreciate the other gender for reasons other than pleasure, which is the last thing on my mind.

  • at the end of the day, everone acts in favour of themselves and refuse think of the implications on others.

    Very well said! Couldn't agree more! The world would be a so much nicer place if everyone stopped to think about what they are doing and the consequences for others. I am ashamed to admit, that I, too, sometimes am stuck in my ways and am not able to do so. Being human seems to mean that one has to be - if not egoistic - then at least egocentric. The problem is, the only person you really know, the only one you can really understand, is yourself - if you are lucky; most people just live from day to day without knowing who they are.


    On the other hand, there are always those willing to change the world, which ultimately means to change yourself. One might not be successful or even on the right track, but it is a start. Don't forget, that you are not alone.


    What you said about sexuality, especially male sexuality: That's the way we men are programmed. That might sound like an excuse, but believe me, it is hard to fight millions of years of evolution. Somewhere deep inside there is always that little voice... It's like the fear and fascination of fire. Or maybe completely different. ;-)


    not only is it James Bond's aim, but it's also the aim of many men in society today, and it's sickening.

    Yes, you might say, he is the prototype of reckless men. But his character goes deeper, too. I think, that is one thing the last two movies showed us: In the end, he is alone. He might have adventures, be the hero, charm any girl into bed he wants, but it comes at a price. Anyone trying to be like James Bond should remember that.

  • True. I mean, the male mind isn't well complicated, it's just hard to understand. I'm still having trouble finding the source up there. I'll admit, I have heard that little curious voice in my head plenty of times in my life, and I've not once done anything except ignore it. However, some, if not most men tend to follow that voice, and they enjoy it. Not only have men been doing this for ages, but it seems to be taking over the world. War of the Sexes if you ask me, and I damn well hope the women win for the sake of mind over matter. I'm actually ashamed to be part of the same gender; I've always been one to side with the women when it comes to male vs. female, especially since most men of our gender are so bloody damn embarrassing and shameful half the time.


    Regarding James Bond; let's just say, when it comes to women, he might not be the brightest crayon in the box. Sure, he's charming, sophisticated, and well handsome, but he's a sex symbol and if you ask me, a good percentage of the women come off as whore-ish, especially Mi6 Agent Fields (from Quantum of Solace), since Bond beds them so easily, with the exception of Vesper and Camille (from Quantum of Solace); oh yes, and if that isn't enough, a recent article said that Camille was the dullest Bond girl to date. Why? I'm sure they said that because she's the only Bond girl who hasn't had sex with Bond.


    Jesus, what the hell kind of world do we live in?

  • Very well said! Couldn't agree more! The world would be a so much nicer place if everyone stopped to think about what they are doing and the consequences for others. I am ashamed to admit, that I, too, sometimes am stuck in my ways and am not able to do so. Being human seems to mean that one has to be - if not egoistic - then at least egocentric. The problem is, the only person you really know, the only one you can really understand, is yourself - if you are lucky; most people just live from day to day without knowing who they are.


    On the other hand, there are always those willing to change the world, which ultimately means to change yourself. One might not be successful or even on the right track, but it is a start. Don't forget, that you are not alone.


    What you said about sexuality, especially male sexuality: That's the way we men are programmed. That might sound like an excuse, but believe me, it is hard to fight millions of years of evolution. Somewhere deep inside there is always that little voice... It's like the fear and fascination of fire. Or maybe completely different. ;-)


    Hence why I said its pretty pointless trying. It is entirely relative to point of view. For example, moral standing. Bad people do not think of themselves as a villain, rather that they believe that those with the opposing view are in the wrong. The perceivement of right and wrong is respective to how you have been brought up and the experiences that you have to date, as is intelligence and personality. But thats not what I'm getting at. I've highlighted the parts I find most relevant to what I'm about to say.


    Although my heart agrees, my mind says that your post contradicts itself. To change the primeval traits of humanity would mean to change humanity entirely -we might as well be something completely different. No matter how civil a person may be, and no matter how human intelligence tries to manipulate our psycology as a whole and regardless of how we evolve further; we will not change. As you said it is hard if not impossible to change what has made our race so definitive to this day.


    But then again, all we know may be entirely wrong and the likely hood is that it is. Most of the great philosophers, poets and scientists up until about 1900 who made great leaps in terms of what we call intelligence were all at some point certainly on drugs. And even though their experiments are repeated today, who is to say that it is correct? The universe is so unimaginably vast that what we have and know may have mutated in some form, it could be anomalous. There is no evidence to argue against this because even if we set out to find out, by the time we got a reply or disovered another side of the coin the chances are that we would no longer be in existance because our sun would have blown us into oblivion.




    ...My head hurts; I can't even remember what I was arguing for [hehe].


    Lets drink to an unlikely change in the way Lara and the female population is seen in general, hopefully sometime in the near future :drink

  • Lets drink to an unlikely change in the way Lara and the female population is seen in general, hopefully sometime in the near future :drink

    Yeah, cheers ................. :bottle
    So, what are we having and where are we going ? Anyway, I'd love a scotch on the rocks. :hug :urlaub

  • my mind says that your post contradicts itself

    Well, maybe that's another human trait: We are, as a species, very contradictory in ourself. On the one hand we born alone, imprisoned in our own mind we can't completely understand, and are ready to destroy anything in our way, and on the other hand we seek community, we seek love and we seek to build ourselves a legacy. We make rules that don't apply to us, we create gods but then deny they exist, we do science to find out how the world around us works and then go on to live in the same old medieval ways... Humans are rather strange!

    Anyway, I'd love a scotch on the rocks.

    Skål! (You know, alcohol is not the answer... ;-))

  • So, what are we having and where are we going ? Anyway, I'd love a scotch on the rocks.

    Dry martini. Three measures of Gordon, one of Vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shaken over ice with a thin slice of lemon peel.

  • Quote
    • Take the juice from one bottle of that Ol' Janx Spirit.
    • Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V
    • Allow three cubes of Arcturan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzene is lost).
    • Allow four litres of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it (in memory of all those happy Hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia).
    • Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odours of the dark Qualactin Zones.
    • Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian suns deep into the heart of the drink.
    • Sprinkle Zamphour.
    • Add an olive.
    • Drink... but very carefully.

    ...but I think we are getting distracted from the topic of the thread, so I apologize in advance! ;-)

  • Lets drink to an unlikely change in the way Lara and the female population is seen in general, hopefully sometime in the near future

    I think one of the problems is, that women stopped fighting. Not all of them, mind, but there are so many (female) friends I had back in school who I never thought of getting themselves locked up in a home with kids, sacrificing their career, while their husband is out there hunting the mammoth providing for the family. I mean, it's OK if that's what they really want, but I doubt it. And all of them who got married gave up their surname, a thing I really can't understand. Isn't that like giving up your identity?


    And its not only "they" stopped fighting, "we" (the men) are beginning to expect submission from women again, and I can't understand that either. Weren't we supposed to be past this archaic state of mind? Maybe it's because my generation was raised by parents from the 60s and 70s, who really wanted to change these sorts of things and as every generation we want to be completely different from our parents...


    So, in a way Lara could be a prototype: Young, intelligent, respected by her fellow men, and more importantly independent. So it's a shame that most people only see the sex symbol.

  • And all of them who got married gave up their surname, a thing I really can't understand. Isn't that like giving up your identity?


    Now that really does aggravate me. I'd much prefer to keep my own surname or have a double barreled surname, primarily because it keeps my link with my ancestors alive and because it would cause a great deal of confusion in the future if I get the job I want.




    And its not only "they" stopped fighting, "we" (the men) are beginning to expect submission from women again, and I can't understand that either. Weren't we supposed to be past this archaic state of mind?


    Hmm. I see your point, although it could be possible that men are becoming confused.
    I.E, they can't tell when a female wants to be...chased per sei. The majority of females (16-18 year olds) that I come into contact with are morphing into men in the sense that if they find a man attractive, they will be sure to let him know. It usually includes some ambiguous comment and flaunting cleavage in a low cut top. Much like the wolf whistles from a man to a woman. This tomboyish attitude is not a new observation but it is becoming normality. So, it is hypothetical to state that men no longer know when a woman is trying to attract attention or not...the lord knows how many times I've gone out for dressed up smart for an interview and had some form of comment made about my attire :-?

  • The majority of females (16-18 year olds) that I come into contact with

    Well, that seems to be a different age group than the people in my circle of friends. Maybe it's different nowadays, there is almost a whole generation between me and 16-18... ;-)